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What is Vengeance?

I seriously need some advice on this one.

I am not exactly thrilled that I have to put it like this, but I might have an issue with the emotion vengeance.

It never occurred to me that this may be the case, because the underlying causes prompting the emotion can always be masked by some form of Right Thought. At least partially, and that is sufficient to allow the ARMs to kick in and focus on that part.

So, for instance, when some injustice occurred to me or others, I oftentimes felt a need to "correct" that wrong. The only thing is, that in my head, most of the times the corrective idea was to make the person doing the wrong feel the same thing that it caused. This way, the person can learn not to do that in future, because it understands now how bad it feels. This was often my rationale. (I do KNOW that this thinking is bullshit, but somehow I still have strong urges to requite the wrongs of others with the same coin. Regardless if that wrong has been done to me, or to someone else. Despite this kind of line of thought, I never allowed myself to "distribute" revenge, basically my entire life, no matter who did what to me. And that sure built up a huge load of repression in my psyche. This self-constraint I gave myself was seriously bad for my self-esteem. Constant self-denial of my emotions was not exactly healthy, even though it was the right thing to do from a moral perspective. Thinking that my emotions, for instance revenge, are bad, inexorably creates repression. After 2 decades of hard repression on many fronts, I want to let it out. However, doing so would cause hurt to others.

I feel like it's chess mate.

Seriously, what exactly is revenge? Why does it feel good and bad at the same time? I feel that revenge is a form of justice, only that it is "twisted" in a negative fashion. The right way to rectify injustice would be to create positive examples, and not by perpetrating the hurt. That one's very obvious. I know this, and yet, feelings of an urge for revenge come up. Scenarios where revenge is exacted keep popping up my mind. Again, here, I really don't want to fight on anymore. I don't want to freaking constantly need to use my willpower in order to steer my PU away from idiotic thoughts and actions. It is time consuming, inefficient and just plain annoying. How to undo the urge for revenge? What is the root of it? Any ideas folks?

Aim

Hey Aim

You are struggling with the need to punish those whom have violated you or others you care for because it is the only way you/I/we have been taught to believe how to rewrite a wrong. When we are not heard or validated, or if we are heard but then our words and feelings are abused, twisted, manipulated, the natural response is anger, hurt, and pain. Our anger, hurt and pain manifest in those punitive/vengeful actions. So on one hand, breathe and know that you are not alone in this response, but know that when we are challenged in acting against our HS, it causes harm for us and those whom we lash out and attack.

I think the fact that you are self aware and are struggling with this tells me that you are being authentic (FYI I too struggle with this). But as long as others who don't see how their actions hurt you and others, our natural/innate/spiritual response is to react. The difference here though is that we must always be accountable when we act out of our natural alignment i.e. when we use any form of neglect, abuse, or violence towards others to rewrite wrongs, and if the other is hurt, and we can see that hurt, or know that hurt, it is up to us to be responsible and atone.

Mike always says to me and others "there is no such thing as a wrong emotion." We are emotive beings and part of our growth, development and healing is acknowledging and embracing our spectrum of feelings. If you think of ROY-G-BIV in the same context of our own emotions, our ability to experience a colour or an emotion could not happen if we are not able to see, or posses the comprehension of what that color or feeling is. People who are unaware of the damage and violence they cause to others, are blocked and disconnected. They justify their violence and abuse, whereas people like us, react and when we go against our HS, we experience psychic trauma. That is why processing, discussing, and finding optimal ways in handling our need to punish is a necessary part of spiritual healing.

G

FYI, when Greta Thuneburg came to our city, I lost my marbles i.e. I pulled my Game of Thrones moment on a bunch of oil workers by shouting "SHAME" SHAME" SHAME"  (I wish I had a F'in cowbell HAHA). BUT!!! I am not known for engaging in conflict with strangers - my close relations yes, but never towards strangers. Anyway, after I engaged in verbal abuse and shaming, I felt like shit. I was embarrassed that I lost myself in front of my kids, their classmates, and those like minded strangers who were there to support Greta. FYI, Mike talked to those guys and spoke truth to them with dignity and respect, and was able to de-escalate their verbal and emotional assaults. But Mike was also in a way proud that I stood my ground, he knows how hard this would have been for me, and did not shame me, but reminded me that I could have handled my emotional reaction in where I wasn't adding to the ongoing fear and violence. Point I am trying to make with this example is that it is okay to have an emotional reaction. When in the wrong, as soon as your are aware that you have behaved against your HS, attend and atone. The counsellor in me believes that we are more effective as being visual learners i.e. the more others see us taking responsibility and accountability for our actions and atone, we create the conditions and environments in where others will also learn how to do the same.

G

Okay, thanks for the advice.

Ya, excellent point that emotions cannot be "wrong". .... I somehow didn't fully realize this up until reading your post. I'm sure I read it somewhere on the LP, but it didn't sink in.

Anyhow, thx

Gina is right, punishing others is the only way we know how to deal with boundary violations because it's the only way we have been taught, and that is why it is our "goto" thing. When you think about it, punishment is one of the first lessons you learn as a child, and it is also a lesson that is constantly reinforced by parents, teachers, etc. This constant reinforcement creates a channel for our anger and that channel leads to resolution by violence, which of course only makes the problem worse. The person you meet vengeance upon only gets damaged by the assault and only learns to lie our hide their bad behaviour. Punishment (which is really just vengeance given a legal spin) doesn't work, period. It makes you feel good to think about it because that's how you've resolved anger in the past (and resolving anger feels good) or that's how you've seen others do it.

The alternative is to create a different "channel" for that anger. Ideally, when you are angry with someone, you confront them with your feelings and the reasons why you feel this way. There is then a process where they accept responsibility and make amends, and you forgive and let go. Unfortunately, that does not often happen, yet, because a) we have been taught to punish and b) others do not want to acknowledge and atone because of the guilt, shame, and fear of reprisal (i.e. punishment). Instead, they will use ARMs, lie, gaslight, etc. Thus, you're kinda stuck with the negative anger energy and because that toxic channel is there, that's where the energy tends to flow.

Does this make sense? The question is not is your anger and desire for some form of recompense wrong, they are right because they are how you feel about things. The question is how you are going to direct that energy and properly resolve it. Revenge doesn't work. Proper acknowledgement and atonement is often blocked off. Consequently, you are  usually  left with some variation of "turn the other cheek" and "stay away" from whoever caused your anger in the first place.  You turn the other cheek top avoid being eaten up by the anger energy; you stay away because being around those people will a) expose you to ongoing assault and b) trigger your angry emotions.

Does this make sense?

 

-- All you need is love...

Hey Aim, Mike and others...

I am at work and the issues I am dealing with a client who is struggling with the same issue in this thread i.e. the need to punish or act out vengeance, is that trusting our self and others is also an issue that needs consideration. What I mean is that, you can be the most ethical, transparent, positive minded person when addressing others wrong thoughts and actions, but trust is also rooted in our interactions when dealing with those who have wronged us.

How can our own trust issues impact our need to act out vengeance/retaliation/punishment towards those who are engaging in harmful acts towards us or others or those causes we are passionate about?

G

Hello all,

Im finding that chanelling anger properly from an empowered position instead of an unconscious, knee-jerk position is indeed difficult when there is unacknowledged, a denial of or unhealed trust issues in the past unrelated to present interactions.
Having to be constantly aware of everything in the body mind and emotions reapeatedly to stop, breathe to collect ones thoughts to express any type of percieved or actual wrong, miscommunication or disconnect. Asking oneself, ' how can I address my upset better?' after an escalated interaction helps with personal accountability until the trigger turns to a rustle of leaves in the wind. It will take conscious and constant work.

Deep inside that part of the consciousness, it is believed that either 'im not powerful.enough' or 'no one gives a care about what I say so that I must 'force the issue' to make it stick' or 'no one will defend or advocate for me' 'I will hurt you befor you hurt me' gets internlized and projected as an angry projectile unfortunately at the offending person.

Even when everything is said and done you will eventually have to see that person again, and interaction is necessary on some level at a future time so it is important to address things from a calm, coherent way on purpose and let it go - not keeping score or anything as a punishment or instill toxic guilt.

For the things we care passionately about, we can exude it from our hearts instead of the sleeves to help a person see our perspective of the world without being condescending, disrrspectful or judgemntal.

It is too bad at times 'agreeing to disagree' is looked at as lip service without really seeing that persons perspective especially with politics as an example, for people who have strong and unconscious generational references in my home country, so deep that the histoircal aspects are not given into account in mainstream media.

The people who stepped on our toes few months or days.or decades ago are not the same people who violated our trust when we were not in a position to advocate for ourselves. Trust it seems to be built on a case by case basis which means being compassionate with your gut to either give another chance or peacably walk away.

Speaking from an empowered position internally creates a teaching moment and an opportunity for a better future interactions it takes conscious hard work on awareness not to be violent on the outside or inside due to all that lifetime of negative reinforcement.

The alternative is to create a different "channel" for that anger. Ideally, when you are angry with someone, you confront them with your feelings and the reasons why you feel this way. There is then a process where they accept responsibility and make amends, and you forgive and let go. Unfortunately, that does not often happen, yet, because a) we have been taught to punish and b) others do not want to acknowledge and atone because of the guilt, shame, and fear of reprisal (i.e. punishment). Instead, they will use ARMs, lie, gaslight, etc. Thus, you're kinda stuck with the negative anger energy and because that toxic channel is there, that's where the energy tends to flow.

Seems this time I did pretty much by the book. It's funny how doing stuff "right" still hurts a lot, when the other person doesn't "do it right". I just needed a talk with the person, but - probably due to fear or shame - the person denied me the opportunity to talk about it.

And now I'm stuck on those energies. At least I've been for about 2 weeks. It kind of subsides now. I opted for the "get away" solution. There is not much else I can do.

Hi All

Aim you said: I opted for the "get away" solution. There is not much else I can do.

I think this is an important part of our self awareness journey, and because on hand it seems logical, simple, and the path to one's own least hurt and pain experiences, "getting away" doesn't satisfy those of us who are trying to heal and connect. And I would argue, because of these experiences, our empathy, compassion, desires, and intuitive needs get short changed and it is WE who end up struggling even more so. When you don't have a good support system, or a safe healing space, our ability to become "hardened" or "logical/rational" helps us to keep our feelings from going into over drive, so we consciously disconnect by succumbing to having to get away from the person or situation. Unfortunately, doing so, makes healing and connecting a painful process.

BUT if we are to truly heal and connect, the goal is to not revert back into patterns of coping in where we are suppressing or repressing our thoughts and feelings. In fact, our HS is begging and pleading to connect with those whom we care for to be able to connect with their HS. And when we realize that this won't happen, feelings of being dissatisfied, depressed, apathetic or distrusting ourselves, becomes our realities, thus back into the rabbit hole we go. The more connected we are, the more crazy making these experiences can be. Does this make sense?

G

The more connected we are, the more crazy making these experiences can be. Does this make sense?

Indeed. And this works twofold. The more connected we are to the other person, and also the higher our CQ is. I am fully aware of this, primarily because this is the reason why my trauma is so deep.

I hear what you say. I do know that this is not a "solution" at all. Things will NEVER heal just because time passes. Time cannot heal a thing in the emotional and psychological realm. And "getting away" from the person essentially opts for this strategy. Only that it is never a healing process, but always a coping process, which is anathema to genuine healing. But when the other person is uncooperative, it's still better than enduring constant hurt. My aim is to heal. Which is why I push for this talk. I know that a trauma I have been carrying around for 10 years now, could be healed - at least partially - within a single hour of discussions. I am aware and I do press for it. The person right now served only as a trigger, she didn't create that trauma. She only triggered it. But at the time my trauma was created, I was in a very high CQ-mode continuously because I was doing something similar to the GI for an extended period of time daily and rigorously. The amount of hurt that was generated was high enough to almost entirely shut down the emotional system. I was not able to feel a thing anymore for years to come after the trauma. But allow me to explain the situation.This will be quite personal, so I hope I don't go too far here and I hope it's ok to write it down. Who knows, perhaps someone has had similar experiences, or is able to get some insights from it.

When I was 10, my mother divorced, and did merry again. My twin brother, my mom, and me moved from Romania to Germany to live with her new husband. We didn't get along with him. I don't want to talk badly about someone who co-financed my existence, but frankly, he was emotionally, psychologically and mentally not mature enough to handle us.

Shortly after moving to Germany, we started to struggle a lot with our relationship with him, which also had negative effects on our relationship with our mom. She always took his side, no matter how stupid the situation was. This had good reasons, of course. She wanted to avoid that he kicks us out and we thus need to go back to Romania, where our livelihood would have been in danger. However, I felt quite disregarded and neglected. Moreover, we were strongly discouraged to express our feelings, our thoughts, our needs. Discouraged in the sense that speaking out our minds would have led in 100% of the cases to big verbal fights, which we would always lose. So soon enough, we stopped expressing what we thought, what we felt, and also our needs.

This was the day-to-day ambience we lived in. So we escaped by being outside all day long, computer games and doing sports with locals.

So one good day my stepdad came home, found that the light in the bathroom was on, and freaked out. He stormed angrily into our room, shouted some stuff I can't recall, and raised his hand to hit us. We cowered and he changed his mind, leaving the room. After some hours, my mom came home. I don't know what he told her, but, here we go again, she also stormed into our room to "discuss" the thing with us. I remember that whenever we tried to explain ourselves, she started crying (because we didn't cooperate like good little sheep). I was petrified every time that happened, and stopped my attempt to explain myself. After the third time or so I tried to speak up for myself, she asked angrily: "what do you want? to go back to Romania?" And I knew this was a rhetorical question. So I took all my strength and pushed everything in my heart back. I '"understood": my own needs are not asked for. Never. Don't try to speak up. Just "go with the flow". Never inconvenience others. Don't feel the way you feel.

After copious thinking, I think this is the core source of my trauma. I remember how I willingly and consciously pushed back my needs and urges. From this point in time (I was 13) I had plenty of opportunities to enforce my sweet conditioning. And so I did, up until I truly "groked" my worthlessness. Lots of things happened which gave me the "opportunity" to make myself feel even less worth. For about 7-8 years, after which I finally graduated from school and left home.

To be perfectly honest, this was not the largest source of my emotional and psychological pain. (Which is why I found it difficult to identify that situation as the core of the problem). By far the largest pain was created due to this experiences, but through other people, and especially due to love. Due to my unworthy sense of self, due to the fact that I have/had difficulty in expressing my needs, it is not difficult to paint the rest of the picture when we imagine how romantic relationships would pan out for me. And my heart was quite active. So after what felt an eternity of anguish, my body cut down the cord, so that I don't feel anything anymore. While at it, I also dropped my entire moral code, which was a big source of anguish, as well.

As you can see, it all spiraled quite out of control. Especially because at the age of 17-18 I did something similar to the GI, which enhanced my state of mind, state of heart and all bodily functions. I started to awaken. Great timing, huh? Obviously, I was neither ready for it, nor did I have any support. After some months of the GI, I found it almost impossible to socialize, because no one understood anything about the world, about the problems I saw socially, politically, inter-personally etc. I felt like an alien on this world. School was hell. My friends as shallow as someone can be. I was highly confused about pretty much everything and the constant self-denial led to strong psychosomatic effects.

I already stated it somewhere, but I'll state it again. The LP probably saved my life. It would have been impossible for me to get out of the (partially self-imposed) swamp I was in. But, frankly, the truth has set me free. After reading the Book of Life, the Book of Light, The Great Awakening, The Dossier of Ascension, I finally had a world view which fit the things I was constantly seeing. And my mind started to be at peace. The stress dissipated, and so I started my healing path.

 

Anyhow, Gina, I think I know what I need to do. I simply need to speak up for myself. And I need situations - personally important ones - in which I do express my thoughts, feelings, needs and wishes, instead of repressing them. The other person doesn't need to cooperate very much. Merely listening would suffice, for my trauma is related to the difficulty of expressing to an important person what I feel and what I wish for. Nothing more. What the actual reactions are doesn't even matter here.This experience should be had with females. And I do need to have a good talk with my mom about this, too ... Now is the time, for I finally managed to become 100%ly independent financially. And she is a very kind-hearted person.

Anyhow, Gina, I think I know what I need to do. I simply need to speak up for myself. And I need situations - personally important ones - in which I do express my thoughts, feelings, needs and wishes, instead of repressing them. The other person doesn't need to cooperate very much. Merely listening would suffice, for my trauma is related to the difficulty of expressing to an important person what I feel and what I wish for. Nothing more. What the actual reactions are doesn't even matter here.This experience should be had with females. And I do need to have a good talk with my mom about this, too ... Now is the time, for I finally managed to become 100%ly independent financially. And she is a very kind-hearted person.


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 My challenge to you is, what makes you think that if you can assert, communicate, and intend with those whom have failed you before, what is it about you and your own healing that will protect you?

🙂 thanks for your concerns Gina, and the call to caution is well taken.

Oh, there are several answers to your question.

First, it is clear to me that this will not work with just about anyone who "failed" me. I do try to choose the right persons.

Before moving forward with the answer, there is an important assertion I'd like to make. I notice that your advice is as with driving: safety first. The rationale behind it is probably the idea that, before pushing the pedal, one should make sure one drives forward and not backward. Furthermore, that by driving ahead one doesn't drive over other persons (hurt others). Thus, it is better to be cautious, and obviously, there are plenty of scenarios which don't have good solutions.

I don't know why, but my urge to move forward is strong. Safety - for me - is simply not important. I'd rather move backward than to stand still. Why? Because by moving one gets momentum. And by getting momentum change occurs. The only thing left is to steer the momentum in the right direction. But first, momentum. Being "stuck" only can occur when we don't move, in my opinion. And I've been stuck for way too long. My soul is crying, I need to move on. I don't intend to tell you I am "special" in any way. But I do know a lot about the LP. And this knowledge is the ultimate steering wheel. More powerful than anything I came across. The knowledge acquired from the LP, however, can only act as a steering wheel. If I don't drive, then the steering wheel doesn't accomplish much. Thus, I need to push forward so that the steering wheel gets put to use properly. I have an excellent archetypal system in my head, but as long as it is not lived through the body, as long as the archetypal system is "on hold" due to trauma, it is, again, fruitless.

Which is why, in the past weeks, I made some more or less bold moves. As of yet, everything worked out fine. Obviously, I am not reckless. I choose the right moments, the right tone, the right approach. Planned progress, so to say. So, for instance, I actually went ahead and confronted my mom. She instantly acknowledged that things didn't go well, and she apologized. I knew she had lots of regrets about our past, and so, the discussion killed two birds with one stone. I was able to express my feelings - the fact that certain situations resulted in trauma, which I enforced myself subsequently - and she was able to know that I forgave her long ago, and that she was also able to express the regret. She atoned for the situation long ago actually. Only this discussion was still lacking. Our relationship improved instantly.

While I knew from the beginning it would go well with my mom, I wasn't ready to move forward up until recently. So I never attempted the confrontation. Also, I do know that it will not always run this smoothly with all the others I still have some discussions to do. But this was the most important one, for it was literally the root cause of my little problem(s).

I do know it often doesn't go well. I saw this first hand with a friend of mine, who had an abrupt and strong awakening. It was not pretty, even though my friend was equally apt in choosing the right moment, the right tone and the right approach. It was simply impossible for him. And the "discussions" he had were truly hurting both him and his parents, but he felt the need to try, so that is what he did. It didn't work out. They all got hurt in the process. But frankly, it would not have been better in either case, whether he tried it or not. By trying, there was at least a chance at resolution. After several attempts, he gave up and made his peace with the situation. In my eyes, the concept of safety - which is central to healing - doesn't apply ubiquitously. The way I see it, safety is important as a long term concept. Not necessarily as a short term concept. If it was meant as a short term concept, it could easily contribute to being stuck, because one would start finding (good) reasons for never moving forward. In my eyes, our PU is capable of withstanding short periods of hurt quite well. But it does poorly when under constant, prolonged assault. Thus, I figured safety is a long term concept. But correct me if I'm wrong here.

Aim

AWESOME!!! I raised concerns to you but for others. I am so very happy for you and all your work, and your ability to share with me/us/others. This "stuff" we are discussing can be so easy but yet so hard, hence my "mama bear" warnings about safety 🙂

i will digest and respond more in a bit...

G

Hahaha 🙂

Ya, it looks easy when one looks at it "objectively". In the end, what's so hard about having a good talk with someone? But the reality often feels totally differently. I think our societies lack terminology and concepts surrounding energy. Human energy. How it is persistent. And how it has valence and spin. And that is what makes such discussions so hard. The energy one is obliged to draw when going through the experience. It seems as if one is obliged to transmute the energy one has previously produced. Energetic amends, so to say. The principle of responsibility springs to mind. Together with genuine author-ity.

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